The Curious Case of David Thompson and Victor Zammit

Hi Paul,

A cowardly old dog but a playful one



Gee my arthritic bones are already reacting to that much activity.

Actually following the Michael Prescott Blog from the above link is also very interesting.

Cheers

Jim

LOL and yes the Michael Prescott blog is a good one although I sometimes find the discussions a tad abstruse.

It is my opinion that reality is, its time David Thompson and Warren Caylor stepped out of the closet and revealed all, or we shut the door as Spiritualists, until they do. There appears to be no provable truth to the claims of either one. David and Victor will not answer the questions that tend to invalidate their claims. Warren stated he would accept any conditions, even scientific ones and does not follow through. In the past significant Mediums did deliver proof, even in the face of very unpleasant protocols. So why are neither of these prepared to verify their claims in an atmosphere which would be supportive.

Fortunately neither of them really is significant in our movement and others have, proveably, lead the way. So time to let them go, they are as of nothing to the history of Spiritualism. If they step up and prove their reality I will applaud shout and support them.

Truth is critical in Spiritualism, if there is doubt then we have to question and hope the answers give evidence. We have all waited a long time for the proof with both of these people. Maybe, hopefully an answer will come to remove any doubt.

Jim

Admin wrote:It is my opinion that reality is, its time David Thompson and Warren Caylor stepped out of the closet and revealed all, or we shut the door as Spiritualists, until they do. There appears to be no provable truth to the claims of either one. David and Victor will not answer the questions that tend to invalidate their claims. Warren stated he would accept any conditions, even scientific ones and does not follow through. In the past significant Mediums did deliver proof, even in the face of very unpleasant protocols. So why are neither of these prepared to verify their claims in an atmosphere which would be supportive.

Fortunately neither of them really is significant in our movement and others have, proveably, lead the way. So time to let them go, they are as of nothing to the history of Spiritualism. If they step up and prove their reality I will applaud shout and support them.

Truth is critical in Spiritualism, if there is doubt then we have to question and hope the answers give evidence. We have all waited a long time for the proof with both of these people. Maybe, hopefully an answer will come to remove any doubt.

Jim

"It is my opinion that reality is, its time David Thompson and Warren Caylor stepped out of the closet and revealed all, or we shut the door as Spiritualists, until they do." I agree totally. We waste effort, time and emotion on these two insignificant individuals who appear to promise much but deliver nothing. They appear to care nothing for the concerns of others who are genuine in their concern for Spiritualism and its reputation.

Time to give 'em both the big heave-ho? I'll be the first to stop posting....

It will be interesting to read the PN view of the Caylor affair.

I am no longer interested in the Thompson mediumship.

Z

Hi All,

I don't intend to write more on this until something new occurs. However, like the Warren Caylor thread until there is a resolution to these issues I don't want this floating down the list so I will make it a sticky topic i.e. it will stay at the top of this forum.

Cheers

Jim

Hi All,

Well Victor cannot answer the questions that have validly been raised by the members of the old SCR and are repeated here but he can still parade all the old information which answers nothing. Here is his article in Psychic World which appears to have been written in his usual style and possibly been published in a mainly unedited manner.

In particular I find it personally offensive that the editor of Psychic World should publish something containing the final two paragraphs where the editor of one Internet newsletter Psychic Times and the editor of the famous Psychic News are both attacked. Well here he goes;

“WORLD SHATTERINGMATERIALISATIONS IN SYDNEY!
Victor Zammit

During a recent sitting (30th March 2008) with physical medium David Thompson in Sydney Australia five figures well known to Spiritualism came through.
The night was made special by the fact that two visitors had travelled three and a half thousand miles from Perth to attend. One of them, was David Duncan, grandson of the famous medium Helen. The other was Christine Morgan, President/founder of the Spiritualist Sanctuary in Perth Western Australia. Helen Duncan mainly addressed her remarks to her grandson.I also had a very brief conversation with an entity claiming to be Alan Crossley. When materialised among other things he asked, "Are you all Spiritualists?". I replied, "NO, not really.' He then asked, “Who said that?" I replied, "Over here, it's me Victor.''Victor!” He said. Then he said words to the effect to keep on doing what Iwas doing with my afterlife research.

Christine Morgan's testimony about the events read as follows: The communicators whom manifested wereof great standing in the history of spirit work and research, which to my personal delight meant a lot to me. Gordon Higginson spoke directly to me firstly addressing a conversation I had had about him the previous evening! An amazing experience as I have had an affinity and deep respect for his work though never knew him. However my father did, and Gordon spoke of this, he also spoke of the sanctuary I am involved in, with direct knowledge.

Alan Crossley a great physical mediumship researcher and a friend of my father's also came through that evening, he greeted me personally, spoke about my dad several times, and shook my hand, felt my face and stroked my hair, this causing me to bevery moved. Two people in the spirit of whose work I revere, of whom I have only heard about, and here they were speaking and touching me like they knew me personally.

Lesley Flint, also addressed someone in the room he knew giving him great support for his own work as a medium. To have these great pioneers for the spirit manifest to speak to us, give us encouragement for the work we do for the spirit, cannot be compared.
A questioning mind, I always look for the empirical reality over the illusion, and this was an empirical reality! Helen Duncan and her spirit control also addressed my friend, but that is his story, being very important andof a personal nature it was not only moving but very evidential.'
David Duncan writes:
Needless to say I have no doubt whatsoever that this was indeed my Grandmother - known throughout the world as one of the greatest and best known physical mediums, that gave her life, so that we might practice these natural gifts given to us without fear or malice. And Albert Stewart almost as well known as Helen and as much apart of her family as anyone could be - I look forward to many more conversations with both of them. Talking to both of them and the advice given tome has been a life changing experience.
Because the seances are mostly held in total darkness people always ask how we can be sure that there is no trickery going on. For the record in the Circle there are professional investigators who were with intelligence agencies. There is also a former police officer with professional investigation experience. There's a psychologist with expertise in Scientific Method, professional journalist and a retired attorney - an expert in the admissibility of evidence. These are all highly qualified, highly skilled professionals.
I can assure you that after some70 weekly sittings with David in several different countries we would certainly know if there was anything not 100 per cent.
And for the record, hereinafter very succinctly is a list of some of the phenomena we have all witnessed on many occasions:
* repeated levitations sometimes with David speaking from up near the ceiling
* matter through matter demonstrations
* the sound of materialisation and de-materialisation
* extended trumpet phenomena
* musical instruments played high up near the ceiling
* the mediums gag being de-materialised and re-materialised
* curtains opened and closed by materialised hands
* large hands and small fingers visible in the light of a luminous plaque
* apport phenomena
* verified signatures of spirit guests written on paper
* ectoplasm seen and photographed in red light
* materialised guests shaking hands with sitters who were able to feel the size of their hands
* the sound of materialised feet walking across the floor and in some cases the feel of them treading on toes
* lots of touch of materialised adults,children and at least two dogs.
* several spirit voices - and David Thompson's voice - being heard ATTHE SAME TIME conversing to each other.
* William (David's control) and David counting simultaneously
And most telling of all, the Circle has had more than 90 people reunited with loved ones whom they identified as giving them evidence of their identity and up to date involvement in their lives.

In addition in the COSC there are those who are mental mediums themselves and have received cross-validation before during and after sittings.
It has to be noted that the Circle only puts a small proportion of the taped evidence on the internet.
It was interesting that someone - let's call him "S - whom I am informed probably never attended a materialisation session, tried to discredit David's mediumship and the credibility of the Circle members and disputed that Alan Crossley would materialise;he made a silly offer of one thousand pounds if I would call Alan Crossley back and cross examine him.
Clearly this uninformed 'S' did not understand that the group had only come through on that occasion because of the presence of David Duncan and Christine Morgan.
The offer fizzled out to nothing within a few days. But this complainant 'S', who is NOT a professional, NOT an empiricist, NOT an investigator, NOT a journalist, tried to attack the professionalism of the sitters of David Thompson's Circle of the SilverCord (COSC). He fooled just a couple of website holders but dumped him very soon after they discovered his motivation for his attack being a gauche attempt to whip up some excitement for his miserably failing website. And judging by objective conduct, he also managed to fool the Susan, the editor of Psychic News, who swallowed his nonsense hook line and sinker and published his challenge but refused to publish my full reply.
It was sad that the Psychic News fell for the complainant's lies and deliberate misrepresentations. Perhaps it was an attempt to subtly attack the credibility of myself as a professional, as an empiricist with a website which has a wide readership - but more likely because I also write for the PSYCHIC WORLD. Read my fullresponse to the complainant I called 'Simon Dick.' http://www.victorzammit.com/articles/dick.htm
Access Dr Victor Zammit's site and videos on Youtube: www.victorzammit. Com”


I guess we see again those tremendous over the top claims which, as the events took place in the dark and often with people fairly disconnected to the visitors require better proof. Again no mention of the problems listed at the start of this thread. I also note that, contrary to his assertion, that he had proof to show that Simon was wrong, he has delivered none. It may appear to many who have watched matters unfold over time that if VZ’s opinion is challenged he says he will deliver an answer, then he abuses the questioner in any way he sees fit and then he lets the matter drift out of site if that is possible. On this occasion it does appear he let his emotion rule by taking the attack into another “Psychic” newsletter.

Cheers

Jim

Hi All In fact I posted the following on another list yesterday
Hi All,

I wonder if you have all caught up with Victor Zammits September effort in Psychic World.

I will ignore the first section of his article which is no different to anything which has been published by him before and fails to deal with the issues you may find here or other information at
http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2008/08/rethinking-david-thompson.html?cid=126956044#comments

and I will go directly go to the last paragraphs
"It has to be noted that the Circle only puts a small proportion of the taped evidence on the internet.
It was interesting that someone - let's call him "S - whom I am informed probably never attended a materialisation session, tried to discredit David's mediumship and the credibility of the Circle members and disputed that Alan Crossley would materialise;he made a silly offer of one thousand pounds if I would call Alan Crossley back and cross examine him.
Clearly this uninformed 'S' did not understand that the group had only come through on that occasion because of the presence of David Duncan and Christine Morgan.
The offer fizzled out to nothing within a few days. But this complainant 'S', who is NOT a professional, NOT an empiricist, NOT an investigator, NOT a journalist, tried to attack the professionalism of the sitters of David Thompson's Circle of the SilverCord (COSC). He fooled just a couple of website holders but dumped him very soon after they discovered his motivation for his attack being a gauche attempt to whip up some excitement for his miserably failing website. And judging by objective conduct, he also managed to fool the Susan, the editor of Psychic News, who swallowed his nonsense hook line and sinker and published his challenge but refused to publish my full reply.
It was sad that the Psychic News fell for the complainant's lies and deliberate misrepresentations. Perhaps it was an attempt to subtly attack the credibility of myself as a professional, as an empiricist with a website which has a wide readership - but more likely because I also write for the PSYCHIC WORLD. Read my fullresponse to the complainant I called 'Simon Dick.' http://www.victorzammit.com/articles/dick.htm
Access Dr Victor Zammit's site and videos on Youtube: www.victorzammit. Com”

I find this to be apalling, there is no new evidence to deny the Psychic Times issues and yet Victor has been allowed to abuse the editor of Psychic Times and even more so the editor of Psychic News by Ray Taylor the editor of Psychic World.

Unfortunately, a "Rev" Ray Jones published a very negative attack on the SNU and accreditation some months ago so this is the second time that I note Psychic World has allowed innappropriate comment into the publication.

I guess this is not the last we will hear. Oh well let us forget about proof and appropriate behaviour however sad that may be. It appears neither Victor Zammit, David Thompson or Warren Caylor wish to deal with these issues.

I print this only to publish the brilliant article that Lis wrote on the same List as the next post.

Cheers Jim

Hi everyone,



Victor Zammit’s article does seem to present an inaccurate picture of events.


In the May 31st issue of Psychic News an article headed ‘Journalist offers 1,000 pound challenge’ reported that Simon Forsyth, editor of Internet publication www.thepsychictimes.com had offered to donate to charity in exchange for some answers. It noted that his challenge was directed to Victor Zammit, an ardent supporter of physical mediumship and a powerful advocate for the work of British medium David Thompson who currently resides in Australia. The article reported that Victor Zammit had claimed that the late Alan Crossley, a much respected Spiritualist pioneer and author had communicated through the mediumship of Mr Thompson. To substantiate this claim, a recording of the alleged communication had been placed on Mr Zammit’s website.


The article continued with a report on the fact that Simon Forsyth was “convinced that the communicator in question was not Alan Crossley”, a close friend of Forsyth for many years. Therefore, PN observed, he had challenged Mr Zammit to provide evidence of the authenticity of Alan Crossley’s communication and in his publication had requested Victor Zammit to ask the personality claiming to be Crossley five questions which Forsyth would provide. He then offered a procedure for revealing the answers and the results from the claimed Crossley.


PN’s article goes on to note that Mr Zammit has in the past not reacted favourably when challenged about the veracity of his claims of David Thompson’s mediumship and observed that Mr Zammit’s initial response to Forsyth’s challenge on his website was in a “characteristically forthright vein.” Quoting from Mr Zammit’s site the PN article noted that under the heading “A coward attacks Victor”, Mr Zammit wrote he promised to “rebut that guy who thinks he is a smartass,” and described the challenge as typical of “an uninformed defeatist” who “does not have the testes, the courage, the honesty and integrity to send me the ‘dirty’ article. Coward!”


PN asked Forsyth for his reaction to Mr Zammit’s claim he had not received the “dirty’ article.” He insisted that he had, and prior to publishing his challenge. Forsysth also acknowledge that while one could not guarantee that any spirit would come to communicate, he thought the closeness of his friendship with Crossley would enhance the possibility he would try to communicate and provide answers to his five questions or that another spirit communicator might provide them on Crossley’s behalf.


It is clear that the Psychic News article is not biased in any way. It is merely a news item on a matter that might be of interest to its readers. It does not either support Forsyth or unfairly report Mr Zammit’s position.


As is usual, when someone wishes to respond to an article in Psychic News (or any other Newspaper for that matter) PN printed a response to Forsyth’s article from Mr Zammit on June 14. This was in the PN Readers Forum where letters to the Editor concerning news, views and opinions is presented. As a standard part of that section of PN is the quite normal statement “The editor reserves the right to edit or shorten letters.”


Mr Zammit’s letter to the editor claimed that Forsyth was “misleading everyone with his challenge” to “get Alan Crossley back and cross-examine him.” Zammit suggested that the Thompson circle had no power to invoke any spirit and observed that ”spirit visitors usually come through only when there is a close tie of affection and a particularly urgent reason to do so.” Mr Zammit then stated that Crossley had come through on that particular occasion because the daughter of a close friend was present. As a disclaimer to his previous position that the entity recorded was actually Crossley Mr Zammit reported “I have always stated that no one in the circle can prove the identity of those who materialise – even if they correctly produce all the answers to questions put to them. We never ever guaranteed that those who materialise are who they claim to be – never.” Mr Zammit added that “using empirical methodology, we present the evidence, the taped voices from materialisations, and leave those who listen to them the discretion to accept or reject the identities.” After suggesting that they did not rely on the taped voices as evidence but on statements from “credible witnesses” he argued that it was “irrelevant when Simon sent his email” to Zammit claiming that he had “published and disseminated his silly challenge before he sent the e-mail” to Zammit.


It is quite clear that the editor of PN gave Mr Zammit a fair opportunity to express his opposing views and Mr Zammit made his view quite clearly in his letter.


PN then printed, again in the Readers Forum, Forsyth’s reply to Victor Zammit’s letter. Once again, if one reads PN on a regular basis, a quite normal practice by the paper. Forsyth’s reply was published in Psychic News on June 28. Note that this letter was also subject to the same editorial disclaimer and it too may have been edited or shortened at the editors discretion. In it Forsyth addressed several points in Zammit’s reply to his challenge. First, that he had never requested Mr Zammit “cross-examine” the alleged Alan Crossley nor that he could be “invoked.” In regard to Zammit’s claim that the alleged Crossley had come through because the daughter of a close friend was present, Forsyth drew attention to the fact that Zammit had failed to mention this ‘witness’ who claimed it was Crossley. Had never known Alan Crossley personally and argued that therefore there could not possibly be a “close tie of affection” since they had never known each other.


Forsyth suggested that if anybody was being “misleading” it was Mr Zammit. Further he asked if Zammit could not guarantee the spirit communicators are who they say they are why does he “explicitly make the claim that specific communicators spoke”” Forsyth then pointed out that at first Mr Zammit claimed Forsyth had not sent him an e-mail, then that it was “irelevent” when he sent it. It was Forsyth’s view that Mr Zammit could not “get basic facts correct. As a consequence his sensationalist claims regarding David Thompson’s mediumship should be treated with caution, particularly since most of his so-called evidence is merely anecdotal, rather than originating from systematic scientific evaluation by independent investigators.”


Mr Zammit subsequently wrote the article printed in Psychic World.


In my opinion, from examining the evidence that his attack on Simon “Dick” Forsyth, and on Sue Farrow, the editor of Psychic News, is entirely unjustified, misrepresentative of the facts, and extremely unpleasant. One would not be surprised to find Forsyth or the PN editor seeking legal redress with Zammit and the editor of Psychic World for the article Zammit has written and Psychic World had the lack of wisdom to publish.



Lis

Hi All,

For interest Lis teased out some interesting data from the section of The Psychic World article written by Victor Zammit which reads as follow

“Because the seances are mostly held in total darkness people always ask how we can be sure that there is no trickery going on. For the record in the Circle there are professional investigators who were with intelligence agencies. There is also a former police officer with professional investigation experience. There's a psychologist with expertise in Scientific Method, professional journalist and a retired attorney - an expert in the admissibility of evidence. These are all highly qualified,highly skilled professionals.”

The question was, who were the various circle members fitting these criteria, given we had the complete list of COSC members ourselves.

“For the record in the Circle there are professional investigators who were with intelligence agencies”. VZ is the only person who has claimed he worked with such agencies although one may bet he will say that the secrets act precludes divulging a name.

“former police officer with professional investigation experience” amazingly enough this has to be David Thompson himself, who was a policeman briefly, although how he can investigate himself is a mystery.

“There's a psychologist with expertise in Scientific Method” clearly Victor himself.

“professional journalist and a retired attorney” clearly Victor again

So none of the other COSC members fulfill any of these roles which he claims make them such an important investigative unit (although I believe Mr Zammits’s wife is also a psychologist) and none had much experience in Physical Séances previously.

“These are all highly qualified,highly skilled professionals.” Well I do not believe David had a long and extensive career in policing, from his talks with us here and the only other COSC member described in this whole article appears to be Victor himself. He is clearly not illustrating the investigative abilities of the other COSC members despite appearing to try and convince us of the impressive credentials of the whole circle.

Once again this information obscures far more than it gives and adds more confusion to the situation. Indeed it adds more questions to be answered.

In a way the issue of what is happening with David Thompson’s “Mediumship” has become a side show, by allowing Victor to be his mouthpiece he is being drawn further and further into a controversy which requires resolution. Indeed the only way out of this, ever broadening, hole for David may be an independently run investigative séance in controlled conditions. Every time his Promotions Manager speaks for him it seems David is presented with another issue to surmount.

Cheers

Jim

Basic fact of the matter is sitters are not there to investigate,they are there to develop the mediumship,they must all be believers in dt and his mediumship for it to progress,if you sat in a group for development you wont get far if you have no faith,if no one believes it is a true gift it will go no where.So they already believe,if they didnt they wouldnt be sitting every week,not what i would call good investigative material,they dont even have the guts to put the hard questions to their guides let alone investigate them,what a joke,the cosc is a circus act not worthy of paying for.
Dt was a policeman?What sort of credit is that?i know of cops that deal drugs,they are no better or trustworthy than any other profession.
The hole they are digging is getting quite large.ib

Let's just hope the hole gets so big that it swallows the lot of them!

Z

Hi All,

I really suggest you go and read Michael Prescott's Blog at.
http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2008/08/rethinking-david-thompson.html?cid=130579636#comments

The one piece of information that COSC, VZ and DT relied upon was the tenuous claim of Guy Lyon Playfair having found a Cadwell, they even claimed he died one year out. Well Guy's full research is in the blog, indicating that he never claimed or found such a death date and a detailed response is given by Lis showing that the William he found has no relevance to the one claimed as he lived only between 1842 and 1865 well out of those claimed by David Thompson (1830 to 1897) and from a very different background.

So final proof, no one fully investigated William Charles Cadwell as David has said and this person as described never had the physical existence claimed.

Cheers

Jim

Well done Jim and Lis for revealing that David Thompson's 'guides/friends' never had a physical existence as he claimed.

His spurious claims have been well and truly shown to be false as have all the other 'characters' alleged to have communicated.

I wonder if Mr playfair is going to tell dt that he got it wrong,this is a big blow to the cosc,oh well that will teach em to question more and not just blindly accept these communicators or some of the advice they give.Dt's last thread of hope in the true identity of his guide is now gone,the only thing he can do now is ask william who he REALLY is,as well as his mates.ib