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Re: what now?
by Happy Healer on Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:02 am
obiwan wrote:I would have thought (in my ignorance) that the question with IDV is the nature of the personal evidence? If that is the case what does it matter that it is in the dark? I can't see people on the phone when I talk to them but that doesn't stop me correctly identifying who I am talking to - even if I have to ask a few questions to confirm identify.
Hi, Obi,
I hear what you're saying about IDV. Regardless of the method used to communicate spirit messages to me, if my red flags go up I must use discernment to confirm the validity of both the medium and the spirit. I trust what resonates within me.
_________________
My karma ran over my dogma.
Re: what now?
by Happy Healer on Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:08 am
[quote="zerdini
Hi HH
I sat with a group eight people on a regular basis with Leslie Flint for ten years and we all received personal evidence. After we had all received our personal evidence we asked wide-ranging questions on every aspect of Spiritualism including life in the Spirit World and received intelligent replies. My experiences do not appear to bear any resemblance to the ones you attended as we were all allowed to tape-record the seances.
I recommend you read "Voices in the Dark" by Leslie Flint who often demonstrated in the USA.
He passed to the Spirit World in 1994 and I have often heard from him since his passing.
Kind regards
Zerdini[/quote]
Big thanks, Z,
I went to the site posted and found him quite interesting. You are so fortunate to have experienced such communication from an accomplished medium. Are there any such gifted mediums around these days? And are there any mediums in training who are about to achieve such status?
Bottom line, I believe that Spiritualism would flourish if more seances and readings were allowed to be recorded, audio and visual taping. Again, I don't like being told that I must have faith and trust in the medium and then tell me to be skeptical about what I hear or learn in Spiritualism.
Hi HH
I sat with a group eight people on a regular basis with Leslie Flint for ten years and we all received personal evidence. After we had all received our personal evidence we asked wide-ranging questions on every aspect of Spiritualism including life in the Spirit World and received intelligent replies. My experiences do not appear to bear any resemblance to the ones you attended as we were all allowed to tape-record the seances.
I recommend you read "Voices in the Dark" by Leslie Flint who often demonstrated in the USA.
He passed to the Spirit World in 1994 and I have often heard from him since his passing.
Kind regards
Zerdini[/quote]
Big thanks, Z,
I went to the site posted and found him quite interesting. You are so fortunate to have experienced such communication from an accomplished medium. Are there any such gifted mediums around these days? And are there any mediums in training who are about to achieve such status?
Bottom line, I believe that Spiritualism would flourish if more seances and readings were allowed to be recorded, audio and visual taping. Again, I don't like being told that I must have faith and trust in the medium and then tell me to be skeptical about what I hear or learn in Spiritualism.
_________________
My karma ran over my dogma.
Re: what now?
by obiwan on Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:11 am
You may of course apply whatever criteria suits you.Happy Healer wrote:obiwan wrote:I would have thought (in my ignorance) that the question with IDV is the nature of the personal evidence? If that is the case what does it matter that it is in the dark? I can't see people on the phone when I talk to them but that doesn't stop me correctly identifying who I am talking to - even if I have to ask a few questions to confirm identify.
Hi, Obi,
I hear what you're saying about IDV. Regardless of the method used to communicate spirit messages to me, if my red flags go up I must use discernment to confirm the validity of both the medium and the spirit. I trust what resonates within me.
Re: what now?
by Happy Healer on Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:14 am
Hi howdy, Mac,
Never fear- I'm not contrary. That's a southern(USA) colloquialism meaning that I'm not easily offended or put out or apt to have my feathers ruffled because we may be in disagreement.
All learning begins with a question. IMO, the fact that you ask more questions than you have answers means that you care. You simply care enough to go on a fact finding mission.
Can't agree with that. Some may stand alone but many are interconnected.
I agree the descriptions of guides vary widely. In my experience, that creates a lot of confusion for the novice. I know what guides surround me. I don't much care for somebody who describes a guide for me and it simply does not resonate. Again, I'm not contrary. If the medium sees that entity and I don't, then no matter. I simply let it slide off and carry on my way. If the description resonates, I'll take it under consideration. If we see the same entity at the same time or I strongly feel the presence, it's a homerun. However, NOBODY should be told that "this is your guide, these are your guides, end of story". That is when I cease to be contrary.
As for my husband, when he made his transition at home I prayed for his quick return to spirit, released from any karmic debt we had together, with hopes that he wouldn't be bound to the physical plane for any length of time. Some folks go to the funeral and want to hear from their spouse immediately. I didn't. When I went to church, I didn't want any medium to give me a "pity message" from him. I knew there was much healing to be done. In fact, the first messages I got were from his kinfolk thanking me for deeds I had done that nobody ever knew about. It was almost 2 months before messages began to come from him and they were truthful in their content as they were unlike ANY other messages other widowed parishioners had gotten that I observed.
It may not seem that you're providing me with any answers to my questions but I'm starting to see more clearly now. I thank you so much for your replies. Mac, you said you went to the States for 3 months. Do you have an account or blog anywhere that you describe where you went and what you did in regards to Spiritualist endeavors?
Never fear- I'm not contrary. That's a southern(USA) colloquialism meaning that I'm not easily offended or put out or apt to have my feathers ruffled because we may be in disagreement.
All learning begins with a question. IMO, the fact that you ask more questions than you have answers means that you care. You simply care enough to go on a fact finding mission.
...all natural laws stand on their own merit – none is dependent on another.
Can't agree with that. Some may stand alone but many are interconnected.
I agree the descriptions of guides vary widely. In my experience, that creates a lot of confusion for the novice. I know what guides surround me. I don't much care for somebody who describes a guide for me and it simply does not resonate. Again, I'm not contrary. If the medium sees that entity and I don't, then no matter. I simply let it slide off and carry on my way. If the description resonates, I'll take it under consideration. If we see the same entity at the same time or I strongly feel the presence, it's a homerun. However, NOBODY should be told that "this is your guide, these are your guides, end of story". That is when I cease to be contrary.
As for my husband, when he made his transition at home I prayed for his quick return to spirit, released from any karmic debt we had together, with hopes that he wouldn't be bound to the physical plane for any length of time. Some folks go to the funeral and want to hear from their spouse immediately. I didn't. When I went to church, I didn't want any medium to give me a "pity message" from him. I knew there was much healing to be done. In fact, the first messages I got were from his kinfolk thanking me for deeds I had done that nobody ever knew about. It was almost 2 months before messages began to come from him and they were truthful in their content as they were unlike ANY other messages other widowed parishioners had gotten that I observed.
It may not seem that you're providing me with any answers to my questions but I'm starting to see more clearly now. I thank you so much for your replies. Mac, you said you went to the States for 3 months. Do you have an account or blog anywhere that you describe where you went and what you did in regards to Spiritualist endeavors?
_________________
My karma ran over my dogma.
Re: what now?
by Happy Healer on Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:41 am
Admin wrote:Hi Happy Healer,
That makes good sense to me. I am interested in the comments about Dv, trumpets and trance. You are in good company with your concerns. I know within the NSAC in the USA they have seperated themselves from any involvement with Dark Seances. The most they support is transfiguration, trumpets and table tipping in the dim light. even then tables tipping and trumpets are as likely to be telekenesis and unless the transfiguration is startlingly good it is open to interpretation.
However the evening of transfiguration and table tipping Rev Anne gehman gave at our Mission was impressive and great fun.
However I do know Camp Chesterfield continues its traditions despite the disclosures of Lamar Keen and the revelations in the Psychic Observer after the weekend of infra red photography in the USA (discussed in seperate threads on here). I have heard little more about the type of work trance, trumpets independent voice you comment on in the USA.
As to the differences I suspect that on the whole if you went into an NSAC church and an SNU one they would be similar. One center here follows that approach. Ours is similar being, like them, non Christian in format but we do not sing hymns. We do play nice meditation music and when appropriate inspiring songs if appropriate ones can be found.
We follow the seven principles and try and ensure we present Spiritualsim in a way that engages the mind but is fun. Our Sunday meeting starts with a prayer to Spirit, Healing meditation hands on Healing, address and demonstration of clairvoyance .
Clearly my wife and I have a great interest in teh History and teh Philosophy as well as both being Proof of Survival mediums, Healers and facilitators of development groups.
My experience with people from the UK and USA is that usually our similarities are closer than our differences. However that can vary when a centre has become excessively "Spiritual" not Spiritualist and encompassing all kinds of ideas or excessively Christian with strong overtones of Jesus still as a Special one and Saviour.
Jim
Hi, Jim,
Thanks for your posts and references. I'm starting to see the differences and similarities in Spiritualism around the world. I've seen transfiguration several times and it's pretty cool. Have not experienced table tipping but heard stories about it. I am aware of NSAC but was not trained under their specific cirriculum. However I was taught that there are two distinctions in Spiritualism.
1)A Spiritualist is one who believes, as the basis of his or her religion, in the communication between this and the Spirit World by means of mediumship and who endeavors to mold his or her character and conduct in accordance with the highest teachings derived from such communication.
2) A Spiritist is one who is more interested in phenomena and spirit communication than they are in practicing Spiritualism as a religion.
Maybe I am not perceiving this clearly, but some posts indicate to me that members here fall into either one of these categories.
I believe our 8th principle - We affirm that the doorway to reformation is never closed against any soul here or hereafter - prevents excessively Christian overtones of Jesus still as a Special one and Saviour. However, Jesus is referred to the Christed One and emphasis is givent to his healing abilities.
I never thought I would go into spiritual healing but once I experienced hands on, I never looked back. It was the biggest high I've gotten since performing on stage.
One day I hope to have the means to travel abroad again. I definitely want to see more of the UK plus hit all those Spiritualist centers. Australia has always been on my list of places to go. The closest I ever got was Madagascar. Or India, if it's closer? Should I make that long voyage I'll bring you whatever books you desire.
Have a great and blessed day.
_________________
My karma ran over my dogma.
Re: what now?
by mac on Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:47 am
Originally I said “...all natural laws stand on their own merit – none is dependent on another.”
You responded: “Can't agree with that. Some may stand alone but many are interconnected.”
But I didn’t say they are not interconnected or must stand on their own, only that a law must stand on its own merit – you can’t have one law dependent on a second one if the second is inaccurate. In that connection I challenged your words “As an entity lowers its vibration it materializes in the physical plane. If this one Law demonstrates Spiritualism, then all Natural Laws would apply.” I’m still puzzled at the suggested linkage between the two statements. Which law states that an entity will materialise in the physical and how does this demonstrate Spiritualism?
The ‘Laws’ you mentioned appear simply to be the basic principles found throughout Spiritualist philosophy and teaching, but codified – is this so?
Your comparison: “A Spiritualist is one who believes, as the basis of his or her religion, in the communication between this and the Spirit World by means of mediumship and who endeavors to mold his or her character and conduct in accordance with the highest teachings derived from such communication. 2) A Spiritist is one who is more interested in phenomena and spirit communication than they are in practicing Spiritualism as a religion.” appears to be a case of a distinction without a difference.
The last section of the first paragraph.... “…and who endeavors to mold his or her character and conduct in accordance with the highest teachings derived from such communication.” is a puzzle. This was also quoted at me recently by another American, in another context. Such behaviour (in italics above) is not something I expect of any individual who calls herself/himself a Spiritualist. I’m just happy when anyone accepts the notion of survival et al and is comfortable calling themself a Spiritualist because of that. Why should we expect more of them?
Re guides I don’t think you actually said what ‘guide’ means to you. Would any of the descriptions I used feel right to you? When you look to help novices, will guide actually mean personal helper?
And what of reincarnation? A tricky subject especially so when linked with the notion of karma. Does your group actually link the two?
No reference, either, to my concern about fairies and elementals in connection with Spiritualism…. Do they have any relevance? How will your group see such matters?
Earlier you asked about my ideal Spiritualism. Simplicity is the watch-word. As a new group intent on spreading the word and deed of Spiritualism, my concern would be that the simplest of principle and practice should be maintained. Fairies, elementals and karma form no part of the Spiritualism I learned. Will they be in the Spiritualism your group promotes?
Again I hope this does not sound negative - more questions than answers as before.
As a final point, in all situations and places, my constant concern is that mediumship truly is mediumship. Spiritualist mediumship is probably the easiest to define, based, as it is, on demonstrating survival by facilitating communication between incarnate and discarnate relatives and friends. Less easy are those situations where such evidence is not provided - many see this as mediumship too.
My time in the USA was spent, yet again
, in the pursuit of material pleasure, not in any spiritual endeavour. We're RVers and this time we were sight-seeing the mid, north and south western States.
mac
You responded: “Can't agree with that. Some may stand alone but many are interconnected.”
But I didn’t say they are not interconnected or must stand on their own, only that a law must stand on its own merit – you can’t have one law dependent on a second one if the second is inaccurate. In that connection I challenged your words “As an entity lowers its vibration it materializes in the physical plane. If this one Law demonstrates Spiritualism, then all Natural Laws would apply.” I’m still puzzled at the suggested linkage between the two statements. Which law states that an entity will materialise in the physical and how does this demonstrate Spiritualism?
The ‘Laws’ you mentioned appear simply to be the basic principles found throughout Spiritualist philosophy and teaching, but codified – is this so?
Your comparison: “A Spiritualist is one who believes, as the basis of his or her religion, in the communication between this and the Spirit World by means of mediumship and who endeavors to mold his or her character and conduct in accordance with the highest teachings derived from such communication. 2) A Spiritist is one who is more interested in phenomena and spirit communication than they are in practicing Spiritualism as a religion.” appears to be a case of a distinction without a difference.
The last section of the first paragraph.... “…and who endeavors to mold his or her character and conduct in accordance with the highest teachings derived from such communication.” is a puzzle. This was also quoted at me recently by another American, in another context. Such behaviour (in italics above) is not something I expect of any individual who calls herself/himself a Spiritualist. I’m just happy when anyone accepts the notion of survival et al and is comfortable calling themself a Spiritualist because of that. Why should we expect more of them?
Re guides I don’t think you actually said what ‘guide’ means to you. Would any of the descriptions I used feel right to you? When you look to help novices, will guide actually mean personal helper?
And what of reincarnation? A tricky subject especially so when linked with the notion of karma. Does your group actually link the two?
No reference, either, to my concern about fairies and elementals in connection with Spiritualism…. Do they have any relevance? How will your group see such matters?
Earlier you asked about my ideal Spiritualism. Simplicity is the watch-word. As a new group intent on spreading the word and deed of Spiritualism, my concern would be that the simplest of principle and practice should be maintained. Fairies, elementals and karma form no part of the Spiritualism I learned. Will they be in the Spiritualism your group promotes?
Again I hope this does not sound negative - more questions than answers as before.
As a final point, in all situations and places, my constant concern is that mediumship truly is mediumship. Spiritualist mediumship is probably the easiest to define, based, as it is, on demonstrating survival by facilitating communication between incarnate and discarnate relatives and friends. Less easy are those situations where such evidence is not provided - many see this as mediumship too.
My time in the USA was spent, yet again
, in the pursuit of material pleasure, not in any spiritual endeavour. We're RVers and this time we were sight-seeing the mid, north and south western States.mac
_________________
....you don't need eyes to see, you need vision...
Re: what now?
by Admin on Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:36 am
Hi Mac,
Lost a day there somehow just too busy and helping someone with a car problem (not I assure you mechanically my lack of handy man skills verges on the legendary)
Mac I started to answer you by looking back at their creation, however, I am going to put a thread up about them because I think they are so often quoted it has to be a worthwhile discussion. It may take a time because I won't post until I am happy the research provides the thread.
I note that they were originated in a purely Christian Context and they have been developed mostly by the NSAC. Like you many are I feel only an extension of our Principles. I note the Golden Rule often creeps in on the basis of Jesus Christs Love thy.. but of course the origin of this goes right back to Confucious on teh basis of my research. I have also read George Bernard Shaw's ultimate destruction of this as a concept with some amusement because on teh basis of humanity in the physical his points had validity.
I personally find them of interest but am not as committed to teh ideas as I am to our Princples.
Hi HH I am pretty certain that the Spiritist movement, the largest and most vibrant branch of Spiritualism currently in existence, would agree with that definition. Of course founded by Allan Kardec they believed in Reincarnation but said they were not a religion. His series of books the Spirits Book, The Gospels etc still form the underpinning cornerstone of their belief. Essentially these are core differences, as is the geographic location of what is now their heartland Brazil.
You will find some more details about them on this forum.
Jim
Lost a day there somehow just too busy and helping someone with a car problem (not I assure you mechanically my lack of handy man skills verges on the legendary)
Would it - do you think - improve my overall understanding of the subjects we discuss in this, and other, Spiritualism-based forums?
If so I could order a copy for delivery in the winter when we get back there....
Mac I started to answer you by looking back at their creation, however, I am going to put a thread up about them because I think they are so often quoted it has to be a worthwhile discussion. It may take a time because I won't post until I am happy the research provides the thread.
I note that they were originated in a purely Christian Context and they have been developed mostly by the NSAC. Like you many are I feel only an extension of our Principles. I note the Golden Rule often creeps in on the basis of Jesus Christs Love thy.. but of course the origin of this goes right back to Confucious on teh basis of my research. I have also read George Bernard Shaw's ultimate destruction of this as a concept with some amusement because on teh basis of humanity in the physical his points had validity.
I personally find them of interest but am not as committed to teh ideas as I am to our Princples.
Hi HH I am pretty certain that the Spiritist movement, the largest and most vibrant branch of Spiritualism currently in existence, would agree with that definition. Of course founded by Allan Kardec they believed in Reincarnation but said they were not a religion. His series of books the Spirits Book, The Gospels etc still form the underpinning cornerstone of their belief. Essentially these are core differences, as is the geographic location of what is now their heartland Brazil.
You will find some more details about them on this forum.
Jim
Admin- Admin
Re: what now?
by mac on Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:27 pm
thanks for your reply, Jim. As always it will be interesting to read what you find out about these historical sources.
I'm going to search out Kardec's 'Spirits' Book' from the loft shortly. I studied it in my early years along with a host of other books and it will be interesting to see how relevant it feels to me nowadays.
I don't remember much, if anything, which felt out of line with what is taught in Spiritualism but it will be interesting to see if that's simply down to a selective or faulty memory.
I'm going to search out Kardec's 'Spirits' Book' from the loft shortly. I studied it in my early years along with a host of other books and it will be interesting to see how relevant it feels to me nowadays.
I don't remember much, if anything, which felt out of line with what is taught in Spiritualism but it will be interesting to see if that's simply down to a selective or faulty memory.
_________________
....you don't need eyes to see, you need vision...
Re: what now?
by mac on Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:59 pm
Curious how Happy Healer appeared briefly and has now disappeared - something I said?
I found my copy of The Spirits' Book and was astonished just how much I had indeed forgotten about it. Perhaps appropriately because the way it's written makes me realise how little I could identify with it now....
It sounds so old-fashioned with constant references to 'God', almost like something written for mainstream religion adherents.
It came as quite a surprise to see how far away I've moved from certain of the notions taught there.
I found my copy of The Spirits' Book and was astonished just how much I had indeed forgotten about it. Perhaps appropriately because the way it's written makes me realise how little I could identify with it now....
It sounds so old-fashioned with constant references to 'God', almost like something written for mainstream religion adherents.
It came as quite a surprise to see how far away I've moved from certain of the notions taught there.
_________________
....you don't need eyes to see, you need vision...
Re: what now?
by zerdini on Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:46 pm
Curious how Happy Healer appeared briefly and has now disappeared - something I said? Wink
HH last logged on - 11th October 3.00 am - but does not appear to have posted anything.
Re: what now?
by mac on Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:12 pm
zerdini wrote:Curious how Happy Healer appeared briefly and has now disappeared - something I said?
HH last logged on - 11th October 3.00 am - but does not appear to have posted anything.
curiouser and curiouser.....
_________________
....you don't need eyes to see, you need vision...
Re: what now?
by Admin on Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:28 am
Hi HH
Interestingly I believe that the founder of the Spiritists Allan Kardec left that body a very large body of philosophy in his varios works The Spirits Book, Gospels etc, however he was pro reincarnation but did not accept Spiritism was a religion. That movement flourishes in French, Portugese and Spanish speaking countries. It has now become a de facto religion and of course is the largest group of people gathered under the "Spiritualism" heading. There are possibly over 40 million just in Brazil. It is probably the most vibrant body and its writers continue to produce major works that are in tune with their founders philosophy.
I actually believe that the differences are rather subtle but caused by the fairly strict adherence to the doctrines laid down in their "bible" the works of Allan Kardec.
Jim
2) A Spiritist is one who is more interested in phenomena and spirit communication than they are in practicing Spiritualism as a religion.
Interestingly I believe that the founder of the Spiritists Allan Kardec left that body a very large body of philosophy in his varios works The Spirits Book, Gospels etc, however he was pro reincarnation but did not accept Spiritism was a religion. That movement flourishes in French, Portugese and Spanish speaking countries. It has now become a de facto religion and of course is the largest group of people gathered under the "Spiritualism" heading. There are possibly over 40 million just in Brazil. It is probably the most vibrant body and its writers continue to produce major works that are in tune with their founders philosophy.
I actually believe that the differences are rather subtle but caused by the fairly strict adherence to the doctrines laid down in their "bible" the works of Allan Kardec.
Jim
Admin- Admin
-
Re: what now?
by Admin on Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:33 am
Hi HH
Look around this forum and you will find most of us have a problem with this issue. Modern infra red thermographic recorders would cure any issues about proving materialisation, in terms of direct voice and trumpets in reality it is hard to see why they could not be done in dim red light.
Jim
IDV and DV with Trumpet sessions are always in the dark. I can't see what's going on. Recording devices and camera equipment are strictly forbidden. I am told to accept these sessions on faith and trust in the medium's ability.
Look around this forum and you will find most of us have a problem with this issue. Modern infra red thermographic recorders would cure any issues about proving materialisation, in terms of direct voice and trumpets in reality it is hard to see why they could not be done in dim red light.
Jim
Admin- Admin
-
Re: what now?
by obiwan on Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:41 am
I really don't get the problem with IDV and the dark. Either you recognise who you are speaking to and they give evidence to support it or you don't. I don't see how IDV in a lit room will help at all. Maybe you would see an ectoplasmic voicebox flapping? LOLAdmin wrote:Hi HHIDV and DV with Trumpet sessions are always in the dark. I can't see what's going on. Recording devices and camera equipment are strictly forbidden. I am told to accept these sessions on faith and trust in the medium's ability.
Look around this forum and you will find most of us have a problem with this issue. Modern infra red thermographic recorders would cure any issues about proving materialisation, in terms of direct voice and trumpets in reality it is hard to see why they could not be done in dim red light.
Jim
Re: what now?
by Admin on Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:49 am
True Obi but we do have a basic problem that ever since the start of Spiritualism it is the extensive development of Dark Seances which has undermined the movement more than it has aided it. I know Lis is researching this subject in depth so I will leave it till she is in a position to publish. The movements leaders and leading lights have generally opposed this development.
Jim
Jim
Admin- Admin
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